6 things we learned from Hill and Holmes' impeachment testimony so far

Image: Fiona Hill David Holmes
Fiona Hill, a former top adviser on Russia and Europe, and David Holmes, a counselor for political affairs at the U.S. embassy in Ukraine, testified before the House Intelligence Committee Thursday. Copyright Adrian Lam NBC News
Copyright Adrian Lam NBC News
By Adam Edelman with NBC News Politics
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Holmes and Hill were the last witnesses to testify this week following days of public hearings in the House impeachment inquiry.


Fiona Hill, President Donald Trump's former top adviser on Russia and Europe, and David Holmes, a counselor for political affairs at the U.S. embassy in Ukraine, testified before the House Intelligence Committee for several hours Thursday — capping the week's long list of public hearings in the Democratic-led impeachment inquiry.

Hill, a career Russia expert, focused much of her testimony on using her considerable knowledge of Moscow to shed light on various issues at the center of the inquiry, while Holmes laid out additional details about the critical July 26 call he overheard between Trump and Gordon Sondland, U.S. ambassador to the European Union.

Here is what we've learned from today's public hearings — so far.

1. A colorful account of Rudy Giuliani's role

Holmes described in great detail how Rudy Giuliani, the president's personal lawyer, directed a shadow Ukraine diplomacy team that included Sondland, Kurt Volker, the former U.S. special envoy to Ukraine, and Energy Secretary Rick Perry — a trio known as the "three amigos."

His account that it was "apparent" Giuliani had a "direct influence on the foreign policy agenda that the three amigos were executing on the ground in Ukraine" tracks with what other witnesses have testified.

But Holmes, in his testimony Thursday, offered a comical observation about how outrageous many — even Sondland — found the arrangement to be. he recalled a time when Sondland, frustrated with how "active in the media" Giuliani had been "with respect to Ukraine," exclaimed, "Dammit Rudy. Every time Rudy gets involved he goes and f---- everything up."

2. 'Fictions': Hill rejects 2016 election conspiracy

Hill, whose previous closed-door testimony focused onher alarm about the efforts she'd witnessed to pressure Ukraine to launch politically motivated probes, centered much of her testimony Thursday obliterating the already-debunked conspiracy that Ukraine interfered in the 2016 election in a way that favored Hillary Clinton and harmed Trump — a theory promoted by Trump and one that contributed to his negative view toward Ukraine, according to other witness accounts.

"Some of you on this committee appear to believe that Russia and its security services did not conduct a campaign against our country — and that perhaps, somehow, for some reason, Ukraine did. This is a fictional narrative that has been perpetrated and propagated by the Russian security services themselves," she said. "In the course of this investigation, I would ask that you please not promote politically driven falsehoods that so clearly advance Russian interests."

She added, "I refuse to be part of an effort to legitimize an alternate narrative that the Ukrainian government is a U.S. adversary, and that Ukraine — not Russia — attacked us in 2016," saying that "these fictions are harmful even if they are deployed for purely domestic political purposes."

At the center of the alleged quid pro quo that Trump sought was a desire for the Ukrainian government to investigate alleged Ukrainian interference in the 2016 election. Rep. Devin Nunes, the ranking Republican on the Intelligence Committee, has repeatedly referenced the theory in his remarks during this week's public hearings.

3. Quid pro quo corroboration

Holmes testified Thursday that throughout the first several weeks of June, it had become apparent that the "anti-corruption efforts" in Ukraine "on which we were making progress" were "not making a dent in terms of persuading the White House to schedule a meeting between" Trump and Ukrainian President Volodomyr Zelenskiy.

Holmes said it was at this time, on June 27 specifically, that Sondland told Bill Taylor, the top U.S. diplomat in Ukraine that Zelenskiy "needed to make clear" to Trump that he was not standing in the way "investigations" — which Holmes said he understood to mean an investigation into Burisma, the Ukrainian gas company that Hunter Biden joined as a board member in 2014. Taylor told Holmes about this phone call, Holmes testified.

Holmes also said that Taylor briefed him on another phone call that occurredbetween Zelenskiy, Taylor, and the so-called three amigos made the next day on June 28, in which it "was made clear that some action on a Burisma/Biden investigation was a precondition for an Oval Office meeting," Holmes testified.

This explicitly corroborates Sondland's testimony a day earlier that Trump had attempted to engage in a quid pro quo under which a White House meeting for Zelenskiy was conditioned on Zelenskiy making a public statement announcing investigations into Burisma.

4. Aid freeze corroboration and timeline

Holmes outlined, as other witnesses have, that he became aware of a freeze to the military aid to Ukraine on a July 18 conference call during which a White House Office of Management and Budget staff member announced the hold on Ukraine security assistance.

"The official said the order had come from the president and had been conveyed to OMB by Mr. Mulvaney with no further explanation," he said.

Holmes went on to explain what happened in the following days, which included the call between Trump and Sondland he overheard on July 26, in which Trump asked Sondland about "the investigations."

He explained being left out of a meeting that day between Sondland and Andriy Yermak, a top aide to Zelenskiy, because Yermak's assistant told him that Yermak and Sondland wanted "the meeting to be one-on-one, with no note-taker."


It was after that meeting that Holmes joined Sondland and others for the lunch in Kyiv. Sondland dialed up on his cell phone at the table, Holmes testified.

Holmes testified Thursday that he "heard President Trump ask, 'So, he's gonna do the investigation?'" and that "Ambassador Sondland replied that 'he's gonna do it,' adding that President Zelenskiy will do 'anything you ask him to.'"

5. Holmes alleges second quid pro quo

Holmes went on to testify about an August 27 visit to Ukraine by John Bolton, then the national security adviser, during which Bolton told the Ukrainians that Trump wanted to meet Zelenskiy on Sept. 1 in Warsaw.

Holmes**,** who said he took notes of the meeting between Bolton and the Ukrainians, testified that Bolton told Zelenskiy and Zelenskiy's chief of staff that the military aid would remain frozen "prior to the Warsaw meeting," and that its release would actually "hang on whether President Zelenskiy was able to 'favorably impress' President Trump" at the Warsaw meeting. Trump didn't end up making the Warsaw trip, and the hold continued.

Holmes testified that, "By this point, however, my clear impression was that the security assistance hold was likely intended by the president either as an expression of dissatisfaction that the Ukrainians had not yet agreed to the Burisma/Biden investigation or as an effort to increase the pressure on them to do so."


6. CNN interview was closer to happening that previously known

While Taylor had previously testified that he felt the "stalemate" over the release of the military aid to Ukraine ended when Zelenskiy agreed to make a public statement about investigating Burisma on CNN, Holmes' account of the saga offers far more details.

The hold on the aid was released on Sept. 11, but Holmes testified Thursday that "we were still concerned that President Zelenskiy had committed, in exchange for the lifting, to give the requested CNN interview."

Holmes said he received several indications that the CNN interview would occur.

"September 13, an Embassy colleague received a phone call from a colleague who worked for Ambassador Sondland," Holmes testified. "My Embassy colleague texted me regarding the call that, 'Sondland said the [Zelenskiy] interview is supposed to be today or Monday [Sept 16] and they plan to announce that a certain investigation that was 'on hold' will progress."

That aide to Sondland, Holmes testified he was told, "did not know if this was decided or if [Sondland] is advocating this. Apparently he's been discussing this with Yermak."


That same day, Holmes testified, he and Taylor ran into Yermak and "stressed" to him "the importance of staying out of U.S. politics" and that Taylor "said he hoped no interview was planned."

"Yermak did not answer, but shrugged in resignation as if to indicate they had no choice. In short, everyone thought there was going to be an interview, and that the Ukrainians believed they had to do it," Holmes testified.

The interview ultimately did not occur.

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